WHAT THE HAL?? PODCAST 2.0 – EPISODE 12: Is kindness the path to happiness?
WHAT THE HAL?? PODCAST 2.0 – EPISODE 12
The Science of Kindness — Why It Matters More Than Ever
Kindness, human connection, and the science behind positive behavior are at the center of this conversation with experts from Kindness.org.
In this episode, Hunter Lowry leads a discussion exploring how kindness impacts happiness, mental health, relationships, and communities—and why intentional acts of kindness can create ripple effects far beyond the original interaction.
From scientific research and social media behavior to practical ways of building a more compassionate society, this episode examines why kindness matters now more than ever.
KEY TOPICS
• The difference between kindness and politeness
• Scientific research connecting kindness and happiness
• How kindness positively impacts communities and observers
• Measuring kindness through research and behavioral studies
• Social media’s influence on kindness and cruelty
• Practical ways to intentionally practice kindness
• Why kindness is essential to stronger communities and relationships
Support the podcast
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Original Theme Music Composed by Stuart Pearson
https://stuartpearsonmusic.com
Listen to previous episodes
https://audioboom.com/channels/4960408-what-the-hal
RESOURCES & LINKS
https://kindness.org
https://kindness.org/kq
CONNECT
Hal Eisner
https://instagram.com/haleisner/
https://facebook.com/haleisner/
https://x.com/HalEisner
Elsa Ramon
https://instagram.com/elsamramon/
https://x.com/ElsaMRamon
Hunter Lowry
https://instagram.com/serendipitychick/
Transcript
It seems like an elusive concept these days, but kindness, kindness still exists.
Speaker A:And we'll tell you about an organization devoted to cultivating it.
Speaker A:I'm Hal Eisner, and this is what the hell.
Speaker A:Smart, fresh, and uplifting.
Speaker A:We've got the stories that make you want to say what the hell.
Speaker A:A study commissioned by kindness.org discovered a connection between being kind and being happy.
Speaker B:I'm Hunter Lowery.
Speaker B:We invited a couple of folks from kindness.org to explain why kindness prevails even in these seemingly mean and angry times.
Speaker C:Joining us is Jacqueline Lindsay, co founder and CEO of kindness.org and chief science officer, Dr. Oliver Scott Curry.
Speaker C:I want to say, first of all, welcome, and it's so kind of you to join us.
Speaker C:I'm sure you guys get that all the time.
Speaker C:First of all, I, I, I think the word kind or kindness is pretty straightforward, but there's some confusion around the term apparently.
Speaker C:Tell us the difference about, or difference between rather being kind and being nice.
Speaker D:Sure, I'll start.
Speaker D:And thank you so much for having us.
Speaker D:We're so happy to be here.
Speaker A:So it was very kind of you to join us.
Speaker D:Yes, it was very kind of you to have us.
Speaker A:Thank you so Very kind episode.
Speaker C:Kind of nice.
Speaker C:We could go all day, but I'm.
Speaker D:Sure they don't have all.
Speaker B:Jacqueline, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:Go ahead.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:Thank you for that.
Speaker D:Kindness.
Speaker D:So we, I think I give a really simple, but I think easy illustration for people to get the difference.
Speaker D:Nice is not telling someone when they have food in their teeth, and kind is telling them when they have food in their teeth.
Speaker D:So we see kindness.
Speaker D:It takes courage.
Speaker D:It can be a little uncomfortable.
Speaker D:It's getting out of your comfort zone.
Speaker D:Sometimes it's not so much polite.
Speaker D:It's taking an action to help someone else.
Speaker D:And it can cost something.
Speaker D:We actually say the ABCs of kindness and action intended to benefit others, typically with the cost.
Speaker D:So that would be the, you know, funniest and simplest way that I would separate kindness and niceness.
Speaker D:Oliver can speak maybe more from the scientific side of the definition, which I think we would say there's really no universal definition, even though it's universally understood.
Speaker D:But I'll give it to you, Oliver.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:So like Jacqueline said, we, we talk about the ABCs of kindness, and we recognize that kindness comes in many shapes and forms.
Speaker E:So it can be altruism, compassion, duty, fairness, tolerance, respect, and so on.
Speaker E:So it takes many forms.
Speaker A:You know, those of us of a certain age, Hunter and Elsa excluded, remember the president, Herbert Walker Bush, George Herbert Walker Bush.
Speaker A:And we remember when he said things like random acts of kindness and promoted that concept in a campaign.
Speaker A:I always thought that was.
Speaker A:I always thought that was really nice.
Speaker A:I liked that.
Speaker A:And I think that it's a shame that politics doesn't have that sort of same warm, fuzzy thing.
Speaker A:But, you know, even back then, it wasn't always warm and fuzzy, but the thought was.
Speaker A:And, and so is that sort of at the root of some of what you believe in, people should execute random acts of kindness?
Speaker D:Well, we would actually argue kindness isn't random.
Speaker D:So though the sentiment is very positive, we try and challenge how we understand it.
Speaker D:And we say recommended acts of kindness because kindness is intentional and it's something that takes a little effort, even when it's just holding a door open.
Speaker D:And yes, I would say random recommended all acts of kindness.
Speaker D:You know, we are really here to figure out the science of it and then what that means for the practice of it.
Speaker D:How do we use what we understand around the evidence and the benefits and then help guide people on their own individual journey toward more kindness?
Speaker B:I'd like to follow up on that whole business of the sea of how kindness requires, you know, effort and commitment and, you know, maybe a little bit of pain on the part of the person being kind, because I don't, I don't think we think of that.
Speaker B:We think of kindness as being effortless.
Speaker B:But what, what does the science show?
Speaker B:I mean, how do people get themselves to force themselves to be kind?
Speaker E:Well, luckily that it's not always a question of forcing themselves, but we generally think about acts of kindness as ways of kickstarting cooperative social relationships, so mutually beneficial interactions with others.
Speaker E:And random acts of kindness is not necessarily a bad place to start.
Speaker E:I kind of think of it like, you know, picking.
Speaker E:Placing your bets at random, picking a random number on the roulette table.
Speaker E:You might get lucky, you might kickstart, you might help someone who really needs it.
Speaker E:You might kick start, you know, what's that phrase?
Speaker E:A stranger is just a friend you haven't made yet.
Speaker E:So you might help someone at random and, you know, make a new friend or whatever.
Speaker E:But as, as Jacqueline said, you can, you can go one better than that.
Speaker E:You can move on to recommended acts of kindness or more sort of more deliberate acts of kindness helping people who, who maybe need it really more or, or people who are more likely to return the favor down the line or pass it on.
Speaker E:So with a, With a bit more random is good, but with a bit more thought and a bit more direction you can really get these virtuous circles started in your immediate social life and, and further afield,.
Speaker C:You know, virtue circles.
Speaker C:I, I don't know why I'm picturing, like, drums and candles and stuff like that, but I, I don't think it's that.
Speaker C:It's that dramatic.
Speaker C:But I do want to know what the benefits of being kind are, because I've always heard throughout life, if you do, you know, if you show gratitude, if you, you know, think of others and gift others without expecting anything in return, this is supposed to boost your morale.
Speaker C:Does kindness have the same effect?
Speaker E:Well, yes, and that was, that's the study that Howell was referring to.
Speaker E:So, so, yeah, I think you should think about kindness as an investment in your social relationships.
Speaker E:And ideally, that investment pays off.
Speaker E:And the deep reason why people are kind in the first place is because we're social animals.
Speaker E:And for millions of years we lived in social groups and helped one another survive and thrive.
Speaker E:And being kind to others was a way of maintaining those relationships and making sure people are around to help you when you needed it to.
Speaker E:And the, the positive feeling that you get, the warm glow or sense of reward that you get by helping someone is an anticipation of those future benefits down the line.
Speaker E:And the study Hal mentioned was a review of 26 experiments looking at whether helping makes you happy.
Speaker E:Some of those experiments were people were assigned to either perform a kind act for others or do something for themselves.
Speaker E:In other experiments, they were, for example, given $10 and told either to spend it on themselves or to spend it on others.
Speaker E:And overall, on average, people who did the kind act for someone else rather than themselves or spent the money on someone else rather than themselves ended up being reporting being happier than those that, that helped themselves.
Speaker E:So help.
Speaker E:Helping others makes you happy over and above helping yourself.
Speaker A:You know, I mentioned this on this podcast before.
Speaker A:I was out one time to breakfast with my son.
Speaker A:We went to the cashier, and the cashier said, you don't have to pay.
Speaker A:And I said, why?
Speaker A:And they said, because that man in the corner with a white hair who was having breakfast, he paid for your breakfast.
Speaker A:He said, what?
Speaker A:He said, yeah, he.
Speaker A:He comes in every weekend and he picks somebody and he buys them breakfast and he doesn't tell them.
Speaker A:And I thought that was nice, but it was also kind.
Speaker A:And I went out and then I bought coffee for somebody in the coffee line at Starbucks behind me because I felt like I wanted to pay it forward.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes, you know, it's those random acts of kindness that, that Sort of resonate that we can do good things for each other.
Speaker A:I go back to something I quote all the time, which is Rodney King and his famous saying, can't we all get along?
Speaker A:And maybe we could all get along if we were a little more kind to each other.
Speaker A:And in effect, being nicer people and having more of a positive impact on each other, which as I get older and wiser, and God forbid I should say it, more mature, I find that I like being kind, I like being nice, I like helping people.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:And like you say, it does have a ripple effect.
Speaker E:So, I mean, one person helps another and the first person feels good about it.
Speaker E:The person who gets the help feels good about it.
Speaker E:And studies have shown that the recipient is then more likely to go on and help someone else, like you did in buying coffees.
Speaker E:And also third parties.
Speaker E:So people who witness one person being.
Speaker B:Kind to another, talk to us about kindness.org?
Speaker B:Is it, why did you come up with this concept?
Speaker B:I mean, it seems like an odd thing for an organization.
Speaker D:Oh, well, I've been in the nonprofit space my whole career, seen and been involved in a lot of different missions and organizations domestically and globally.
Speaker D:And I think both at the macro level, but also at the personal level and my own life story and what I had gone through with things like bullying and mental health challenges, I saw kindness as the root of everything, like a really essential part of solving any modern problem.
Speaker D:You really can't do it without kindness as the foundation.
Speaker D:I certainly don't want to say it's a silver bullet, but I do think it's a missing link.
Speaker D:I think it's incredibly underestimated, even how the idea of doing the one act and that ripple effect.
Speaker D:And I think what Oliver was starting to get to.
Speaker D:Every act makes a difference.
Speaker D:It all matters, it all contributes, and it has an impact on your well being, on the other person's well being.
Speaker D:So individually, it's very powerful.
Speaker D:Collectively on society, it's very powerful.
Speaker D:And I feel like it needs a rebrand.
Speaker D:I feel like it's seen as this very soft, fluffy idea.
Speaker D:Whereas in actuality there is rigor and science to show why it is so important and essential for our well being in our society to thrive.
Speaker D:And what Oliver said, the more I learned, not coming in as a scientist, I'm the heart and he's the head.
Speaker D:I'm just coming in with passion.
Speaker D:I'm coming.
Speaker D:It's really important.
Speaker D:And now that I'm a mom, I want a kinder world for my children.
Speaker D:I want kinder classrooms, you know, I. Workplaces, I think about unhealthy environments I've been in and how that then, you know, impacts how I go home at night.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And so it just feels like it's this very critical thing we need to be prioritizing and speaking out in a way where it's essential and it's seen as a nice to have or a necessity, not a nice to have.
Speaker D:And so kindness.org was really built with that idea, using science and data and evidence.
Speaker D:Then inform, well, what does this mean for you?
Speaker D:What does it mean for your communities, for your neighbors, your workplaces, your schools?
Speaker D:And that's how we think about our contribution.
Speaker C:You know, Oliver, my question is about how you measure kindness, like, tangibly.
Speaker C:Oliver mentioned that one part of the study, you give $10 to someone and see if they spend it on themselves or others.
Speaker C:But what are some other ways to measure that?
Speaker C:So you have some definitive proof that kindness truly does make a difference?
Speaker E:Well, that's a good question.
Speaker E:So one of the ways we've done that is we created a database of over a thousand acts of kindness and had them rated by people for how costly and beneficial they were.
Speaker E:And from that, we could figure out which were the easiest things to do, which were the most beneficial things to do, all the way from saying hello to someone on your commute through to donating a kidney or saving someone from a burning building.
Speaker E:And we could find out what were the most cost effective things to do, what were the easiest things to do that had which ones did you get the most bang for your buck?
Speaker E:And we used that pool to then create a new type of questionnaire called the, the Kindness Questionnaire or the kq.
Speaker E:And we gave people a bunch of acts and said, okay, which of these things would you be willing to do for your neighbor?
Speaker E:For example, would you lend them a cup of sugar?
Speaker E:Would you lend them your lawnmower?
Speaker E:Would you lend them your vacation home?
Speaker E:Would you take in their pet or whatever it was?
Speaker E:And because we already knew the costs and benefits associated with these acts, we could work out how much, what cost people were willing to pay to provide what benefit to others.
Speaker E:And this comes back to Hunter's question before.
Speaker E:So previous research suggests that paying a larger cost for the same benefit is interpreted as a kind of thing to do.
Speaker E:So if I give you, if I give you a Rolex watch, because I've worked really hard and saved up and want to give you an amazing present, that's.
Speaker E:That's one thing.
Speaker E:If I give you a rolex watch because I've got 400 and I'm bored of them and I don't care about them anymore.
Speaker E:You get the same benefit of a watch, but it says something different about my devotion to you, what I'm willing to sacrifice to help you out.
Speaker E:But in any case, when we give people this questionnaire, everybody says they'll do the easy things and very few people say they do the very hard things.
Speaker E:But people differ where they say, yes, yes, yes, I'll do this, but actually, no, I'll stop here.
Speaker E:And everybody draws the line in a different place.
Speaker E:Everyone has a different trade off of the costs and benefits they're willing to incur for others.
Speaker E:And that allows us to put a very precise figure on how kind they are measured as a function of how kind they are relative to themselves.
Speaker E:So this is the technical small print, but the way it works is everybody cares about themselves at 100% and then we can measure how much they care about others relative to that.
Speaker E:So for example, we find people care about their neighbors about 60% as much as they care about themselves.
Speaker E:They care about their friends 70, 80% and they care about their family 90% and in some cases more than 100%.
Speaker E:They care about their kids, for example, more than they care about themselves.
Speaker E:So with all of that, we can put a very precise figure on how kind people are and how kind people are to different people in their, in their worlds.
Speaker A:I want to, I want to kind of weigh in here on two things.
Speaker A:One is social media, which may not be the friend of kindness necessarily, but also the personal toolbox that we can create in order to have access to tools to be able to be kind.
Speaker A:And how do those two things, a toolbox of kindness, tools and social media intertwine?
Speaker D:They intertwined.
Speaker D:Maybe we'll start with social media.
Speaker D:We did a small study actually looking at kindness and influencers and what, you know, could we discover any relationship there with impact on followers and well being.
Speaker D:So that had a couple interesting anecdotes.
Speaker D:Oliver, I don't know if you know them off the cuff, otherwise I can go into how I think about it with the toolbox.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I'd like to hear, I'd like to hear the toolbox because if, if social media.
Speaker A:And I'd like to hear your anecdotes.
Speaker A:If social media can be the enemy of kindness, what do we take out of our toolbox to try to tweak that?
Speaker D:Well, I would challenge that.
Speaker D:It doesn't have to be the enemy.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:So I think part of the toolbox is you.
Speaker D:Every person has the choice of what they're consuming and how they're consuming it.
Speaker D:And, and so you start with that toolbox of deciding and being intentional with what you're surrounding yourself with.
Speaker D:And if you are going to be on social media, who are you following, you know, how are you engaging, how often are you using it and the impact that has perhaps on your own time and how that time is taken away from other priorities in your life.
Speaker D:So I think the toolbox starts one which is remembering we all have our own power and empowerment to make those choices for ourselves.
Speaker D:And it's hard, but you ultimately are deciding that for yourself.
Speaker D:Each individual, everyone listening here, all of you as hosts, like we're all waking up and deciding what's going to get our attention, what's going to get our time.
Speaker D:And yes, people want to doom scroll or they are drawn to the negative headlines.
Speaker D:That's been the same since the introduction of mass communication.
Speaker D:People want to know the bad things that are happening.
Speaker D:But we are actually seeing a huge uptick in positive content consumption.
Speaker D:We're seeing a huge uptick in influencers that are promoting goodness and kindness and trying to tell positive stories and much more significant engagement and traction around that.
Speaker D:And so that's showing.
Speaker D:There's an appetite, I think, for people who are saying, wait, I don't want to be consumed with negative news, especially younger generations, they're very conscientious.
Speaker D:Perhaps the fault, dare I say, maybe not, maybe we cut that, but of mental health.
Speaker D:You know, like they want to work at a place where they get mental health days.
Speaker D:And it's like a very, very mainstream idea that we should be caring about our well being in that way.
Speaker D:So tool belt toolbox starts there.
Speaker D:In addition, we have a lot of resources.org where you can become educated if you're into the science, you can become inspired if you want to be reminded of the goodness that's out there in the world.
Speaker D:And then we have a lot of resources of how to bring kindness more thoughtfully and intentionally into your life.
Speaker A:I don't want to throw social media users under the bus, guessing there are more kind users than there are unkind users.
Speaker A:But you know, we do hear a lot of people say, I'm getting off social media because I can't handle all the negativity.
Speaker A:We hear people say, I heard it just yesterday, you know, encouraging people to go to my social media.
Speaker A:And I said, well, I got off social media because I can't handle the negativity.
Speaker A:And that that's where in, you know, the lack of kindness can lie, Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So I suppose.
Speaker A:I suppose, you know, my question is, is social media a place where we have to mine more con.
Speaker A:More kindness and more positive feelings and work at it?
Speaker E:There's some research that suggests that people are basically the same in person as their.
Speaker E:As they are online.
Speaker E:So if they.
Speaker E:If they're kind of in the real world, they tend to be kind online, and if they're unkind in the real world, they tend to be unkind online.
Speaker E:So social media seems to me just an amplification of that.
Speaker E:And like Jacqueline says, and as you must know from the news business, you know, if it bleeds, it leads.
Speaker E:So social media has a lot of negative.
Speaker E:There's a kind of negativity bias in general.
Speaker E:And so taking a break from the news in general, including on social media, can, I think, be good for you.
Speaker E:But social media also provides opportunities to influence thousands, millions of people with an inspiring story, with a practical way of helping, with a way of following or boosting some organization or charity or something that you think is doing the right thing.
Speaker E:So, yeah, it's about leaning into those opportunities online, just as it is offline.
Speaker B:I think what Hal may be getting at is the trolls.
Speaker B:I mean, you recognize that people are the same online as they are in person, and yet the anonymity factor tends to amplify the cruelty factor.
Speaker B:And have you found in your research that people who are able to be anonymized express less kindness or more cruelty than they would if you had, you know, their names and faces out there?
Speaker E:We haven't done any direct research on that on social media, but the previous work in with experimental games, for example, shows that anonymity can have a few effects.
Speaker E:So if.
Speaker E:If you're in a.
Speaker E:If you're in a sharing game or a cooperative game in a psychology experiment, being anonymous tends to make people cheat more because they can get away with it.
Speaker E:In other games, sometimes making things public makes people cooperate more because they get reputation.
Speaker E:They're signaling their good character to others.
Speaker E:So, yeah, that would suggest that being anonymous can tend to bring out the worst in people.
Speaker A:Jacqueline mentioned earlier the idea of bullying and kindness being the antidote to bullying.
Speaker A:But we see that on social media.
Speaker A:We see people bullying other people.
Speaker A:And maybe some of that is underlying the notion that maybe we need to find ways to be more kind online.
Speaker A:Maybe that's a new feature.
Speaker A:Be kind online.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:And also, you know, kindness is not just about, you know, infinite, indiscriminate altruism Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
Speaker E:And if that means blocking or muting the trolls, if that means, as it were, punishing the cheats, that's a kind thing to do as well for you and for others.
Speaker C:Does kindness and doing acts of kindness automatically equal happiness?
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker E:I mean, no.
Speaker E:I was gonna say no.
Speaker B:Can I take that one?
Speaker B:Can I take that one?
Speaker B:Because I have a personal story that I wanted to share, because I have always heard that being kind, being altruistic makes you happier.
Speaker B:And in many cases, I've found that.
Speaker B:And I've done volunteer activities that have brought me joy.
Speaker B:And I found myself in a situation with a homeless woman who I met outside of TJ Maxx.
Speaker B:And she asked me for a buck because someone had stolen all her stuff and she had no shoes.
Speaker B:And I thought, I can either give this woman a dollar and walk away and know that, you know, she will continue to be suffering, or I can make an actual difference here.
Speaker B:And I took her in the store and I took her shopping, and I got her shoes and a jacket and underwear and personal hygiene items.
Speaker B:And this woman was challenged.
Speaker B:I mean, she said that she'd been in an accident and she had some brain damage.
Speaker B:And I gave her this stuff and a bag to put it in, and I, you know, got her con, told her, you know, to stay here so I can get some homeless outreach to you.
Speaker B:And I felt like I had done this great good thing, and I contacted homeless outreach, and they went out there, and she was gone.
Speaker B:And I recognized that.
Speaker B:I felt like I was trying to scoop out the ocean with a teaspoon.
Speaker B:And it did not fill me with joy.
Speaker B:It filled me with despair.
Speaker B:So how do you assess kindness when there is so much need?
Speaker E:Well, that's like I was saying before about, you know, you.
Speaker E:You.
Speaker E:You place your bets.
Speaker E:And not.
Speaker E:Not every bet is going to pay off.
Speaker E:So, you know, sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker E:And you have to know when to cut your losses.
Speaker D:And I would add to that, Hunter, because the truth is, we don't know.
Speaker D:We don't know what happens after our kind act.
Speaker D:Sometimes we don't always see the benefit.
Speaker D:We don't see the end of the story.
Speaker D:But who knows what that did for her?
Speaker D:My hope when I hear that story is maybe she wasn't there, but that did something to change her path in the best way possible, that you showed her love and grace and kindness when she most needed it.
Speaker D:So I would just encourage you.
Speaker D:You know, we never know sometimes where the acts could go and what that ripple effect will be.
Speaker D:But you keep trying.
Speaker D:You know, we keep.
Speaker D:We don't want to give up on it.
Speaker D:And I think, you know, to Elsa's question, what the original research showed that we did and how Oliver and I first met was trying to understand what doing kind acts does for our own happiness.
Speaker D:And it shows it has a significant effect on our happiness.
Speaker D:It shows that it's making a difference on our.
Speaker D:On our happiness.
Speaker D:Since then, new research has shown the link between kindness and societal well being.
Speaker D:And it's considered one of the most effective ways to improve the well being of two people simultaneously.
Speaker D:Because you're experiencing this kind act together.
Speaker D:So it's.
Speaker D:It's a two for one, and then if there's someone witnessing it, it's a three for one, because they also get the benefit of seeing that kind act take place.
Speaker D:And so when you start to imagine just what one single act can do for all of us and all of our individual well being, you really start to see the power of how it.
Speaker D:It can boost happiness.
Speaker D:Maybe not always, but most of the.
Speaker E:Time, I would say, on average.
Speaker D:On average.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I never knew that about you, Hunter.
Speaker D:Yeah, it's a beautiful story, Hunter.
Speaker A:And, yeah, I've known Hunter a long time.
Speaker A:I never knew that story.
Speaker A:I really liked that.
Speaker A:I think it says a lot about you.
Speaker A:It's a very nice story.
Speaker B:It was just, you know, something I don't feel a need to share.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was a moment in time, and it needed to be done.
Speaker B:And thank you for making me feel a little better, Jacqueline, because I just.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes there's just so much need out there and so little we can do.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker D:Yes, of course.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm just curious.
Speaker A:I'm just curious.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker A:Jacqueline, before you really got engaged in this.
Speaker A:This organization, did you ever do anything like what Hunter did?
Speaker A:Did you ever do some kind of act of kindness that you'd like to share?
Speaker D:Oh.
Speaker D:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:Put you on the spot a minute.
Speaker C:How are you being nice about this?
Speaker C:Are you being kind about this?
Speaker C:Putting her on the spot, being kind?
Speaker C:How is this kind of you?
Speaker A:You know, I think.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:I think it's nice, and I think it's kind that she is so active in this organization.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes we do things because of motivations, and she mentioned things like bullying, and she mentioned things that, you know, were troublesome, and I just sort of wondered if she had done anything.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know, the only thing I'VE done a couple of things in time, you know, to try to help other people.
Speaker A:But, you know, I dare say if we went out and did a little man on the street or woman on the street and asked people, what have you done to help somebody else?
Speaker A:Might get some interesting answers.
Speaker A:Might not.
Speaker C:That might be a good project, actually a project kind and just get people, you know, telling their stories of kindness and, and I think we're onto something here.
Speaker C:But one, one more thing, Hal, I wanted to add for our next podcast, but you, you mentioned something about, you know, people.
Speaker C:There's a lot of talk about virtue signaling, especially in the climate that we're in politically here in the United States.
Speaker C:And you know, how do you.
Speaker C:Sometimes I feel like you can't win for losing because you do something kind or you say something kind online, on social media, or you do something kind and somebody accuses you of virtue signaling when you know, you're just being nice, your motivation is.
Speaker C:Or being kind, your motivation is truly to help and just put a smile on someone else's face and know you made a difference.
Speaker C:How do you make the distinction between those two things?
Speaker D:Well, you know, we got what, 8 billion plus people now in the world, and I really like to say we're not the kindness police.
Speaker D:So I am not here to determine the intent of someone's kindness.
Speaker C:You know, we need kindness police, though.
Speaker C:No, at this point, we need them.
Speaker D:Well, okay, so, you know, in somewhat related to how what you said, there's a lot of influencers that are making a lot of money off of doing kind acts.
Speaker D:So in a way, there's an argument that they're being exploitive by, you know, they go up and help someone who's homeless, but they're filming themselves helping the person who's.
Speaker D:And then they're making money because it goes viral and everyone, you know, wants to be involved and help.
Speaker D:And so when I look at the whole thing, and again, I, I'm not policing it because I can't, but I have to know kindness.org position within this because it is a great question.
Speaker D:I don't know that person's heart or intention.
Speaker D:I don't know why they're doing it.
Speaker D:Is it to make a dollar?
Speaker D:Is it to really help that person?
Speaker D:I mean, we, I think, can all agree Hunter's heart was very pure that day that she helped.
Speaker D:She wasn't doing it to make anything off of it.
Speaker D:And that's a real experience.
Speaker D:But who knows now what will happen because millions of people have seen this and how they might be inspired to go do something different.
Speaker D:And so instead of focusing on their why or virtue, you know, because we won't know.
Speaker D:You can't really ever know someone's intention.
Speaker D:Try to believe the best as much as you can, not in a naive way, but try to give benefit of the doubt and everyone.
Speaker D:Again, you're in charge of your own self, so just focus on you.
Speaker D:We can't control the external circumstances, so it's almost like wasted energy.
Speaker D:If I try to figure out everyone's why and what we can do about it, all we can do is continue to encourage the behaviors, promote it the best we can.
Speaker D:Hope that people are willing to get out there and try those kind acts and believe that every single one has the possibility to make a really significant difference.
Speaker A:Well, we're just about here, you know.
Speaker A:Go ahead.
Speaker A:Go ahead, Oliver.
Speaker A:We'll wrap it up with you.
Speaker E:I was going to say, I think virtue signaling gets a bad rap.
Speaker E:I mean, as long as you're walking the walk and not just talking the talk, then if it's genuine virtue, then it's good to signal it.
Speaker E:It's good to raise expectations.
Speaker E:It's good to lead by example.
Speaker E:So I'm all for it.
Speaker A:That's a great note to end on.
Speaker A:I mean, where do I get my bumper sticker that says, be kind, push it forward?
Speaker A:You know, I feel like there's some merch needed here.
Speaker C:Create it.
Speaker A:You're very creative.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:You know, I'm very moved by this.
Speaker A:I think it was a great conversation.
Speaker A:I. I like the idea of positivity.
Speaker A:I don't think there's enough of it in the world or in each day.
Speaker A:And so, you know, it's nice what you're doing and kind what you're doing.
Speaker A:And on that note, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker A:And Oliver, I know you're in England and Jacqueline, you're in Florida.
Speaker A:We're in California.
Speaker A:And so we can all be kind everywhere, right?
Speaker A:Yes, everywhere.
Speaker D:Jac.
Speaker B:The name of the organization is kindness.org or.
Speaker D:Yes, follow us on social.
Speaker D:We're good.
Speaker D:We're kind.
Speaker E:Take.
Speaker E:Take the kq.
Speaker E:Get some recommended acts of kindness.
Speaker E:It's all there.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you both.
Speaker E:All right, Cherry.
Speaker A:And that's what the how 2.0.
Speaker A:I'm how Eisner along with Elsa Ramone and Hunter Lowry.
Speaker A:This podcast is produced by Hunter.
Speaker A:Jamie Knapp is our technical director editor, and he handles all of the post production.
Speaker A:Our original theme music is composed by Stuart Pearson.
Speaker A:Earlier versions of the podcast were produced at the studios of Fox 11 in Los Angeles and are available through the link in our show Notes.
Speaker A:This version of the podcast is available on YouTube and wherever you listen to Podcast and what the hell.
Speaker A:2.0 Is produced in Los Angeles, California.
